[SystemSafety] State of Things

Thu Dec 8 17:51:11 CET 2022

Peter & everyone else,

I concur in the judgement to shut down the list, but I write separately
because my opinion on the state of things differs a bit from Peter's.
Specifically, I think quite a few years have passed since this list
consistently saw anything resembling legitimate debates. As GK Chesterton
famously wrote, "People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." For
at least 15 years there have been far more quarrels on this list than good
arguments. The occasional vigorous debates have often been overshadowed by
the more frequent instances of talking past one another, spewing marketing
pitches, making thinly veiled (if veiled at all) abusive ad hominem
attacks, and generally disagreeing disagreeably*. I believe the list is
rarely used because of *that* specific state of things, not because of a
more general lack of desire for true debate. Nevertheless, I agree that
shutting the list down is the best course of action.

Kind regards,
cMh

* To my shame, I've done a bit of that stuff myself occasionally. Well,
never marketing pitches. I have never stooped that low. :-)

C. Michael Holloway
Safety-Critical Avionics Systems Branch
NASA Langley Research Center since 1983
https://go.nasa.gov/2QxruhD <https://shemesh.larc.nasa.gov/people/cmh/>

-----Original Message-----
From: systemsafety <systemsafety-bounces at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de> on
behalf of Peter Bernard Ladkin <ladkin at causalis.com>
Organization: RVS Bielefeld and Causalis
Date: Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 5:18 PM
To: The System Safety List <systemsafety at techfak.uni-bielefeld.de>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [SystemSafety] State of Things

    Folks,

    The Safety-Critical Mailing list started at Uni York on 19th May, 1995

https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fabnormaldistribution.org%2Findex.php%2F2010%2F04%2F07%2Fengineering-discussions-of-discussions-the-york-list-after-15-years%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cc.michael.holloway%40nasa.gov%7Cae19b5c3a3be4e58586a08dad8a106d5%7C7005d45845be48ae8140d43da96dd17b%7C0%7C0%7C638060483378470459%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=bKPFuu8lAQuNMkJ0CpygNb9gc9ACVoAVXtWNdpi64CM%3D&reserved=0

    In my memory, there was extensive discussion of approaches to system
safety, involving in particular
    the IEC standard 61508 on functional safety of equipment involving
digital components. Rich, and
    rewarding.

    In summer of 2012, Uni York in moved to IT services provided by Google,
and suddenly many
    participants of the York mailing list were unable further to
participate, due to their company
    protocols. My group at the Uni Bielefeld reacted: Jan Sanders set up a
mailing list using Mailman in
    my faculty IT-admin and we invited anyone from the York list to join.
Many did.

    Discussion about system safety continued.

    Recently, there have been many important themes in digital-sytem safety
that have come to the fore.
    The revision of IEC 61508, a huge topic of discussion in the earlier
years of the York list. The use
    of machine-learning SW in autonomous road vehicles and other
safety-critical applications.
    Cybersecurity considerations about safety-critical systems and their
resolution (if there is one).

    None of these subjects has attracted much recent debate on the System
Safety List. There may be many
    reasons for this, but one, I think, is that people just don't seriously
debate on mailing lists any
    more.

    The list is maintained through the good auspices of Michael Götting,
head of the Bielefeld
    University Faculty of Technology IT services, Sascha Frey, and
Christian Lange. All of these good
    and devoted people have much to work on (TechFak digital traffic is
half of all traffic at UniBI,
    which supports over 20K students and myriad research groups).

    I don't wish to burden my colleagues any longer with maintaining a list
that is barely used. I
    propose to close the list on 2022-12-31.

    I regret this development. I am firmly convinced that active open
discussion is the best way to
    progress system safety, and the main practical way of enabling active
open discussion is through
    email mailing lists. It seems this view is now "so 1990's". So be it.
Maybe we should all move to
    TikTok.

    I thank all contributors and listeners. It's been good, for a long
while. 27+ years is not a bad run.

    Best wishes to all,

    PBL

    Prof. i.R. Dr. Peter Bernard Ladkin, Bielefeld, Germany
    Tel+msg +49 (0)521 880 7319
https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rvs-bi.de%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cc.michael.holloway%40nasa.gov%7Cae19b5c3a3be4e58586a08dad8a106d5%7C7005d45845be48ae8140d43da96dd17b%7C0%7C0%7C638060483378470459%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=4gpGMO1MAd5Zi%2FPcU2NIEwQZF6kK%2F7XKanbP%2F54aciw%3D&reserved=0

ReplyReply allForward

*--cMh*

1*15*41

On Wed, Dec 7, 2022 at 5:18 PM Peter Bernard Ladkin <ladkin at causalis.com>
wrote:

> Folks,
>
> The Safety-Critical Mailing list started at Uni York on 19th May, 1995
>
> https://abnormaldistribution.org/index.php/2010/04/07/engineering-discussions-of-discussions-the-york-list-after-15-years/
>
>
> In my memory, there was extensive discussion of approaches to system
> safety, involving in particular
> the IEC standard 61508 on functional safety of equipment involving digital
> components. Rich, and
> rewarding.
>
> In summer of 2012, Uni York in moved to IT services provided by Google,
> and suddenly many
> participants of the York mailing list were unable further to participate,
> due to their company
> protocols. My group at the Uni Bielefeld reacted: Jan Sanders set up a
> mailing list using Mailman in
> my faculty IT-admin and we invited anyone from the York list to join. Many
> did.
>
> Discussion about system safety continued.
>
> Recently, there have been many important themes in digital-sytem safety
> that have come to the fore.
> The revision of IEC 61508, a huge topic of discussion in the earlier years
> of the York list. The use
> of machine-learning SW in autonomous road vehicles and other
> safety-critical applications.
> Cybersecurity considerations about safety-critical systems and their
> resolution (if there is one).
>
> None of these subjects has attracted much recent debate on the System
> Safety List. There may be many
> reasons for this, but one, I think, is that people just don't seriously
> debate on mailing lists any
> more.
>
> The list is maintained through the good auspices of Michael Götting, head
> of the Bielefeld
> University Faculty of Technology IT services, Sascha Frey, and Christian
> Lange. All of these good
> and devoted people have much to work on (TechFak digital traffic is half
> of all traffic at UniBI,
> which supports over 20K students and myriad research groups).
>
> I don't wish to burden my colleagues any longer with maintaining a list
> that is barely used. I
> propose to close the list on 2022-12-31.
>
> I regret this development. I am firmly convinced that active open
> discussion is the best way to
> progress system safety, and the main practical way of enabling active open
> discussion is through
> email mailing lists. It seems this view is now "so 1990's". So be it.
> Maybe we should all move to
> TikTok.
>
> I thank all contributors and listeners. It's been good, for a long while.
> 27+ years is not a bad run.
>
> Best wishes to all,
>
> PBL
>
> Prof. i.R. Dr. Peter Bernard Ladkin, Bielefeld, Germany
> Tel+msg +49 (0)521 880 7319  www.rvs-bi.de
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> The System Safety Mailing List
> systemsafety at TechFak.Uni-Bielefeld.DE
> Manage your subscription:
> https://lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de/mailman/listinfo/systemsafety
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