[SystemSafety] Logic

[John Knight]

Note that I was suggesting concepts that I would like to see included in 
higher education, not commenting on current practice.

As many have noted, current practice in a variety of industries in 
several countries rarely (although there are exceptions) includes 
significant rigour let alone application of formal methods.

-- John

On 2/16/14, 12:11 PM, RICQUE Bertrand (SAGEM DEFENSE SECURITE) wrote:
>
>   * Engineers are responsible for what they do.
>
> This depends on the countries and their local engineering cultures and 
> legal system. In France engineers are not personally responsible. The 
> boss of the company is responsible. Engineer is not a regulated 
> position such as dentist or lawyer …
>
>   * Engineering is a profession not some amateur activity.
>
> Yes but you sincerely believe that you are a good professional and 
> have no reason to doubt about that as long as nobody demonstrates you 
> that you are actually an amateur.
>
>   * Mathematics is an essential component of professional computer
>     engineering.
>
> Yes but :
>
> 1.Having never been thought that they were essential, you sincerely 
> believe you don’t need them as long as nobody demonstrates you that 
> you actually do.
>
> 2.The associated level of maths is more relevant from a master degree 
> than a bachelor degree, which means that, at least in France:
>
> a.You don’t what to do with the existing automation engineer population
>
> b.You don’t have the budget to replace bachelors by masters.
>
> Bertrand Ricque
>
> Program Manager
>
> Optronics and Defence Division
>
> Sights Program
>
> Mob : +33 6 87 47 84 64
>
> Tel : +33 1 59 11 96 82
>
> Bertrand.ricque at sagem.com
>
> c.
>
> *From:*systemsafety-bounces at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de 
> [mailto:systemsafety-bounces at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de] *On 
> Behalf Of *John Knight
> *Sent:* Sunday, February 16, 2014 5:58 PM
> *To:* Peter Bernard Ladkin; knight at cs.virginia.edu
> *Cc:* systemsafety at techfak.uni-bielefeld.de
> *Subject:* Re: [SystemSafety] Logic
>
> Peter,
>
>
> obviously I agree with much of what you say. But I am discussing with people who believe that we
> constitute an exception to much of it.
>
>
> I think we are talking about different things.  Research projects need 
> software rapid prototypes to support investigation in areas such as AI 
> and robotics.   These are "throw-away" prototypes that should never 
> make it into production and usually don't.
>
> I am talking about software products that are part of engineered 
> computer systems which will subject others (possibly the general 
> public) to risk.  Higher education has a responsibility to prepare 
> professional engineers to perform that engineering.  That education 
> needs to make it clear that:
>
>   * Engineers are responsible for what they do.
>   * Engineering is a profession not some amateur activity.
>   * Mathematics is an essential component of professional computer
>     engineering.
>
> In response to the comment from Les Chambers:
>
> "We must find a way to bring formal methods out of the lab and into 
> general use."
>
> I generally agree.  But I note that we have industrial strength 
> systems such as SPARK Ada, industrial scope use of such systems such 
> as the NATS iFACTS system, and substantial evidence from Peter Amey 
> and his colleagues that applying such technology is cheaper and better 
> than the informal alternatives.
>
> -- John
>
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