[SystemSafety] The VW Saga

Peter Bishop pgb at adelard.com
Mon Oct 12 16:52:07 CEST 2015

I wonder if all the emission targets can be met *at the same time* with
current engine technology (esp. diesel)?
If not - there might be a strong incentive to bend the rules to show

Peter Bishop

On 12 October 2015 at 10:36, Driscoll, Kevin R <kevin.driscoll at honeywell.com
> wrote:

> What I am afraid of is that we will find other diesel engine manufacturers
> that have software that falls into a gray area.  Where is the line between
> emissions "cheating" and software that just happens to optimize engine
> emissions for driving conditions that look in awful lot like emissions
> testing scenarios?  Bringing us back to our regularly scheduled program:
> where is the dividing line between safe and unsafe software?
> And, of course, both of these will run into the issue Peter raises below
> of the public's interest in knowing what is in software versus the software
> creators' desire to keep trade secret IP.
> P.S.
> Yesterday I saw my first television ad for an "ambulance chasing" law firm
> that was pretending to be (or heavily implied that it was) the official
> recall contact.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: systemsafety-bounces at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de [mailto:
> systemsafety-bounces at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de] On Behalf Of Peter
> Bernard Ladkin
> Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 4:15 AM
> To: RICQUE Bertrand (SAGEM DEFENSE SECURITE); The System Safety List
> Subject: Re: [SystemSafety] The VW Saga
> Hash: SHA256
> On 2015-10-12 10:48 , RICQUE Bertrand (SAGEM DEFENSE SECURITE) wrote:
> > It depends.
> It sure does!
> (I'm slowly beginning to think this is your way of saying "Hi everyone!"
> :-) )
> > It raises interesting questions. Can the retrofit be mandatory ? How
> > can the usual periodic tests (very generic) discover a problem designed
> to be hidden ?
> The questions are indeed interesting, and complicated. I raised this issue
> a while ago (in 2014, I
> think) privately. Both colleagues thought one could never get companies to
> agree to open up their SW IP (as Naughton points out, an increasing portion
> of the value of a product) to third-party inspection. But one of them
> thinks it an appropriate measure, as I do.
> It can't be impossible. For a long time, companies have had to open their
> finances to independent inspection once a year. For financial companies
> (some of the very biggest companies), almost their entire IP consists in
> that. It also doesn't always work (Enron, WorldCom, Lehmann, Madoff). But
> it mostly does.
> So it can be done. What's different about the case for SW?
> It would have to be done through legal instrument, as with finances. And
> if just one country passes such a law, then there is the danger that
> multinationals will just stop selling their products there.
> But I bet there's a way somehow.
> Prof. Peter Bernard Ladkin, Faculty of Technology, University of
> Bielefeld, 33594 Bielefeld, Germany Je suis Charlie
> Tel+msg +49 (0)521 880 7319  www.rvs.uni-bielefeld.de
> uxSPWeghLO+2Vrtf3Q1PxkWt5Ry57IM05A665P+hDEm4raQWuSXwG7HPNMlDyZH4
> j+nVSO+sFYN45ZUM38gev0msv2FYKSym9DrVASv/GXFDJ8mDUKYlAo/ClWipCamC
> pxpUzC+D/W4eMd+as1BeIwUco1NaNZjbiDtOKq48FfVajkz0iszXdBo0Hx/L5srh
> SJF7466TNgmHxrwI/rFkCcTm1fCqdCwI9iVdVshmj5gvpWhCzNOnz0mTvArqRibp
> vD1TeLXrDaY/Ewjph8LM4xkg2ud1zw2RFq4vTCs3dP6ch2UteYQYgLn4IZj62oI=
> =DMHm
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Peter Bishop
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