[SystemSafety] Does "reliable" mean "safe" and or "secure" or neither?

Wed Apr 20 18:30:11 CEST 2016

A necessary discussion!

I understand Chris's point (through overexposure? :-) ), but I agree with Andy and Bertrand -
probably because we're all on the IEC 61508-3 MT where these things have been hanging around in the
air for a couple of years now, and it's clear what "integrity" means to us at the "court" compared
with what it means to the poor unwashed outside the gates who only have IEC 61508:2010 to guide them
:-) (That is a very large smile, BTW.)

But it's not just a matter of concepts and definitions. I've heard Chris's "scary" talk a couple of
times now, in which he shows that the cultures around safety and the cultures around security are
different and often lead to incompatible requirements. That's a real problem, on the ground, and he
is very persuasive about it.

I didn't see why it should be so a couple years ago, when he first said it at an SSS invited talk
(probably because he mixes it in with derisive comments on causality, which always gets my goat :-)
). I have now seen for myself what he means. It was also emphasised in the Chatham House report on
Cybersecurity in NPPs, and Roger Brunt (the former chief of security for the British nuclear
regulator, and an author of the report) emphasised it during the discussion in March.

A key technical point comes out of this, which we will address at the German standards authority on
May 4, along with German colleagues active in ICS safety+security and NPP safety+security within the
IEC. And that is that the requirements for updating safety-critical software conflict with the usual
update cycle for security and nobody - nobody - I have talked to knows how to solve that problem.
Roger is very aware of it. The recent IEC offerings on safety+security gloss over it. We've gotta
solve it somehow. (For Bertrand, I mentioned this also to Gilles Deleuze. I know now that the
French, the Brits and the Germans are all interested in a solution. Of course, being interested in
one and getting one are two different things.)

PBL

On 2016-04-20 17:54 , RICQUE Bertrand (SAGEM DEFENSE SECURITE) wrote:
> 1. adherence to moral principles; honesty
> 2. the quality of being unimpaired; soundness
> 3. unity; wholeness
> 
> Webster :
> 1    :  firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values :  incorruptibility
> 2    :  an unimpaired condition :  soundness
> 3    :  the quality or state of being complete or undivided :  completeness
> 
> I understand that in technological field what we mean by "integrity" in engineering is both definitions 2 and 3.
> 
> Bertrand Ricque
> Program Manager
> Optronics and Defence Division
> Sights Program
> Mob : +33 6 87 47 84 64
> Tel : +33 1 58 11 96 82
> Bertrand.ricque at sagem.com
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andy Ashworth [mailto:andy at the-ashworths.org] 
> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 5:48 PM
> To: 'Christopher Johnson'; RICQUE Bertrand (SAGEM DEFENSE SECURITE); 'Peter Bernard Ladkin'; systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de
> Subject: RE: [SystemSafety] Does "reliable" mean "safe" and or "secure" or neither?
> 
> If Integrity is interpreted as applying to a system's ability to perform in accordance with the designer's intent, rather than focusing on data integrity, then the security definition works. 
> 
> In my mind I further characterise security as measures to thwart a deliberate attack, while dependability usually considers random effects that can affect a system's behaviour and as such the two concepts are complementary.
> 
> 
> 
> Andy Ashworth, P.Eng
> System Safety Certifier
> OLRT Constructors/Constructeurs
> Confederation Line
> 1600 Carling Ave. Ottawa, Ontario
> Suite 450, PO Box 20, K1Z 1G3
> 
> Office: 613.916.6706
> Cell: 613.314.6404
> Email: andy.ashworth at ottawa-lrt.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: systemsafety
> [mailto:systemsafety-bounces at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de] On Behalf Of Christopher Johnson
> Sent: April-20-16 11:03 AM
> To: RICQUE Bertrand (SAGEM DEFENSE SECURITE) <bertrand.ricque at sagem.com>; Peter Bernard Ladkin <ladkin at rvs.uni-bielefeld.de>; systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de
> Subject: Re: [SystemSafety] Does "reliable" mean "safe" and or "secure" or neither?
> 
> I dont think this is appropriate any more.
> 
> Security here seems to imply conventional IT systems - most of the breaches I work on in safety related SCADA/ICS applications focus on the consequent loss of control which is not characterised either by concerns over data integrity or confidentiality.
> ________________________________________
> From: systemsafety [systemsafety-bounces at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de] on behalf of RICQUE Bertrand (SAGEM DEFENSE SECURITE) [bertrand.ricque at sagem.com]
> Sent: 20 April 2016 15:23
> To: Peter Bernard Ladkin; systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de
> Subject: Re: [SystemSafety] Does "reliable" mean "safe" and or "secure" or neither?
> 
> I would stick to the Laprie taxonomy :
> 
> Dependability =  Availability + Reliability + Safety + Integrity(not the SIL one, the true one) + Maintainability Security = Integrity + Confidentiality
> 
> Bertrand Ricque
> Program Manager
> Optronics and Defence Division
> Sights Program
> Mob : +33 6 87 47 84 64
> Tel : +33 1 58 11 96 82
> Bertrand.ricque at sagem.com
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: systemsafety
> [mailto:systemsafety-bounces at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de] On Behalf Of Peter Bernard Ladkin
> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 8:21 PM
> To: systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de
> Subject: Re: [SystemSafety] Does "reliable" mean "safe" and or "secure" or neither?
> 
> On 2016-04-18 18:25 , Chris Hills wrote:
>> What is the current thinking?   Does "reliable" also infer safe or secure?
> 
> The system consists of the following.
> 
> You, tied up in a chair, fixed to the floor. Along with your nemesis, with a rifle, who is pointing it at you, and is an excellent shot, and intends to shoot. Heshe pulls the trigger.
> 
> If the rifle is reliable, the system is unsafe.
> 
> If the rifle is completely unreliable, the system is safe.
> 
> PBL
> Prof. Peter Bernard Ladkin, Faculty of Technology, University of Bielefeld,
> 33594 Bielefeld, Germany Je suis Charlie
> Tel+msg +49 (0)521 880 7319  www.rvs.uni-bielefeld.de
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> #
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-- 
Prof. Peter Bernard Ladkin, Faculty of Technology, University of Bielefeld, 33594 Bielefeld, Germany
Je suis Charlie
Tel+msg +49 (0)521 880 7319  www.rvs.uni-bielefeld.de

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