[SystemSafety] Tram Accident in Croydon

Sat Nov 19 11:52:37 CET 2016

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-38036567

On 18 Nov 2016 15:23, "Robin Cook" <robincook107 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Many thanks Dick,
>
>
>
> A link to an interesting initial status report.
>
>
>
> I agree with comments that we should always be looking to maximise safety
> and minimise the need for human intervention to provide safety.
>
>
>
> However we also need to be aware of the operational requirements of the
> society in which we live and the commercial realities of transport systems
> such as the Croydon Tramlink. I recall that when the Docklands Light
> Railway first opened in the late ’80s, its passenger stock had bus/tram
> doors that swept across the carriage floor on the inside. This was
> corrected with the replacement stock in 1992 given that the passenger
> loading levels were higher than originally planned for. Different rail
> systems achieve a tolerable level of safety in different ways in alignment
> with their size, speed, passenger numbers etc. Tram systems are a case in
> point; much of their running is open to the public and road vehicles. The
> creators/managers of a tram system will have produced their budgets on the
> basis of tram safety, not mainline or high-density metropolitan railway
> safety. What I would assume, subject to the alternative coming out, is that
> the Croyden Tramlink follows the standard UK safety practice for tram
> operations on the basis that the Railway Inspectorate will have approved
> their operation (and HMRI is not known for approving poor systems).
>
>
>
> It may be that safety improvements in the provision of “Tram” services
> will be required following the inquiry but these should be well thought
> through not knee jerk.
>
>
>
> My understanding of driver competence is that drivers are required to know
> the route to a level that includes knowing just what the speed limit is and
> where it starts even if the sign has gone missing. There are also small
> points such as: we should be able to assume that the speed limit was signed
> in the same units as the tram speedometer. I would hope that the inquiry
> also looks at whether the tram was behind schedule and the driver under
> pressure to recover that schedule – management causes.
>
>
>
> If we want to be non-pragmatic then we should take motor vehicles off the
> road – the reason that the derailment is news is that it is unusual. Modern
> society needs tolerably safe transport and the task before the engineering
> community is to provide the systems that society needs at a tolerable level
> of safety.
>
>
>
> Robin Cook
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* systemsafety [mailto:systemsafety-bounces@
> lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de] *On Behalf Of *Dick Selwood
> *Sent:* 16 November 2016 16:26
> *To:* systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de
> *Subject:* Re: [SystemSafety] Tram Accident in Croydon
>
>
>
> This is the press release from RAIN and it links to the interim report
>
> https://www.gov.uk/government/news/interim-report-fatal-
> tram-accident-croydon
>
>
>
> On 16/11/2016 15:45, Andreoli, Kevin (UK) wrote:
>
> Train was doing 43.5mph in 12mph zone.
>
>
>
> See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38003934
>
>
>
> Quote from train driver's union:
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>
>
> Aslef, the train drivers' union, said it was "clear that the lack of adequate safety systems were at the root of this dreadful accident".
>
>
>
> District organiser Finn Brennan said a system to make sure trams travelling too quickly in a potentially dangerous area can be slowed down and stopped should be put in place, as on the mainline railway and London Underground.
>
>
>
> "If it had been then this awful event could have been avoided," he said.
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> Kevin
>
> --
>
> Usual disclaimers.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: systemsafety [mailto:systemsafety-bounces at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de <systemsafety-bounces at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de>] On Behalf Of Peter Bishop
>
> Sent: 11 November 2016 09:39
>
> To: systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de
>
> Subject: Re: [SystemSafety] Tram Accident in Croydon
>
>
>
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> Re 12 mph / 20 kph limit
>
>
>
> Could this be an issue of the wrong speed units?
>
> I.e. driver thinks the limit is 20*mph*?
>
>
>
> Peter Bishop
>
>
>
> On 10/11/2016 11:45, Peter Bernard Ladkin wrote:
>
> On 2016-11-10 09:36 , Andreoli, Kevin (UK) wrote:
>
> I suspect the reason rail type safety is apparently not installed
>
> will be down to the thinking that Trams are Buses on rails and not Tram = Train. .....
>
>
>
> The engineering involved will all have been by professional light-rail
>
> people well acquainted with the hazards of rail operation, of which
>
> overspeed in a changing track configuration is a very well known one,
>
> as is driver incapacity. I don't expect any comment on this list from
>
> UK rail engineers, but I wouldn't be surprised if at least one person reading this is thinking "you know, we did say......"
>
>
>
> The trams themselves are (first batch) Bombardier Flexity Swift CR4000
>
> sets built in Vienna. They apparently do have a "deadmans's handle"
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_CR4000
>
>
>
> The second batch are Stadler Variobahn sets
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variobahn Stadler The Variobahn is a
>
> Bombardier design (originally called Variotram), manufacture of which was taken over by Stadler in 2001 (according to the Wikipedia page).
>
>
>
> I wrote:
>
> It is the first fatal accident on UK rail/tram lines in 12 years,
>
>
>
> This is not so. It is maybe the first one in that time not involving
>
> system-external agency (even that is questionable - see 2016.08.07
>
> below). The Wikipedia page on TfL Tramlink https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramlink says:
>
>
>
> On 7 September 2008, a bus on route 468 travelled through a red
>
> traffic signal and collided with tram
>
> 2534 in George Street, Croydon. The impact caused the death of a
>
> passenger who was reported to have been thrown through the upper front window of the bus.......
>
>
>
> On 13 September 2008, tram 2530 collided with a cyclist at Morden
>
> Hall Park footpath crossing between Morden Road and Phipps Bridge tram stops. The cyclist sustained injuries from which he later died.
>
>
>
> And I read on the RAIB WWW site of four other fatal accidents in 2016
>
> alone
>
> https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/raib-current-investigations
>
> -register/rail-accident-investigation-branch-current-investigations
>
>
>
>
>
> 2016.02.23 a pedestrian was struck by a train on a pedestrian level
>
> crossing
>
> 2016.08.07 a passenger on a train struck his head on a signal gantry
>
> 2016.08.15 a pedestrian was struck by a tram
>
> 2016.10.05 a mobility-scooter user was struck at a level crossing
>
>
>
> I also said:
>
> The corner is apparently posted at 12 mph = 19 kph
>
>
>
> I took that figure from the newspaper report. The RAIB says it is
>
> posted at 20km/h
>
> https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fatal-tram-accident-in-croydon
>
>
>
> PBL
>
>
>
> Prof. Peter Bernard Ladkin, Bielefeld, Germany MoreInCommon Je suis
>
> Charlie
>
> Tel+msg +49 (0)521 880 7319  www.rvs-bi.de
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