[SystemSafety] systemsafety Digest, Vol 52, Issue 27

Simon Whiteley simon at whiteley-safety.co.uk
Sun Nov 27 18:27:23 CET 2016


Hi all,
I have already contacted the Coroners Office, and Bucks County Council regarding a transcript and further info.

I'm going to call them again tomorrow.

I'll post back here when I have an update.



On a side note, I've already started doing a quick and dirty STAMP Analysis (CAST Accident Analysis) on the information currently available.
It already raises some big questions, though I recognise at least some of those questions may have been answered if the "news" sources were better reported.

Once I've finished it and done the video, I'll post a link to it.

All the best,

Simon Whiteley

> On 27 Nov 2016, at 17:06, systemsafety-request at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: SKODA Crash in the UK - Cruise Control Stuck On
>      (Martyn Thomas)
>   2. Re: SKODA Crash in the UK - Cruise Control Stuck On
>      (Pekka Pihlajasaari)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 14:43:07 +0000
> From: Martyn Thomas <martyn at thomas-associates.co.uk>
> To: systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de
> Subject: Re: [SystemSafety] SKODA Crash in the UK - Cruise Control
>    Stuck On
> Message-ID:
>    <d189df91-b5a9-cfc7-3e74-719cbd61b6ff at thomas-associates.co.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> It should be possible to locate the coroners' court address, if anyone
> wants to inquire whether a transcript of the expert evidence is available.
> 
> Shifting to neutral or depressing the clutch would sound scary if the
> engine was really at maximun acceleration. Would the engine survive? If
> the engine failed, would the failure be catastrophic?
> 
> Martyn
> 
>> On 26/11/2016 19:11, Mike Ellims wrote:
>> 
>> I did a bit more digging on this one but I can?t find a transcript of
>> the coroners hearing so some of the details are unclear.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> An article in the Telegraph to the effect that it should have been
>> possible to shift from 6^th to neutral even without pressing the
>> clutch. The implication of is that the vehicle had a manual
>> transmission so pushing the clutch in will disconnect the engine from
>> the drive wheels as would putting the vehicle in neutral.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> In addition this is a German car (basically it?s a VW Golf in drag) so
>> the E-Gas concept would have been part of the ECU, so in theory if the
>> brake pedal had be pressed then the engine should have gone to idle.
>> Note E-gas has been around since the problems with unintentional
>> acceleration in the Audi 5000 in the 1980?s
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> This is nominally a closed standard but I found (actually Google found
>> it...) a copy on-line at
>> https://www.iav.com/sites/default/files/attachments/seite/ak-egas-v5-5-en-130705.pdf
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Gareth Lock commented: ?What is interesting is that the Start/Stop
>> button failed to have an effect?.
>> 
>> There are a number of issues with stop/start buttons.
>> 
>> 1.       Some are (or at least were) asymmetric in the operation i.e.
>> press for ? second to start and 1 or more seconds to stop...
>> 
>> 2.       Start/stop button has to be held ? this was noted as being an
>> issue in the crash with the Osprey tilt rotor reset button ? the pilot
>> never held the button in.
>> 
>> 3.       So it?s possible that even if the button was ?pressed? it
>> wasn?t held
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The Octavia user manual offers the following information on its KESSY
>> system
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> WARNING
>> 
>> ?Never switch off the ignition while driving, as the power steering
>> and brake booster will no longer operate - risk of accident!
>> 
>> ?Never leave the keys in the vehicle, if leaving children unattended
>> in the vehicle. Otherwise the children could start the engine - risk
>> of accident!
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> And:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> In an emergency, it is possible to switch off the ignition even at
>> speeds greater than 2 km/h, by using the "emergency ignition shutoff
>> system". Press the starter button for longer than 1 second or twice
>> within 1 second.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> *From:*systemsafety
>> [mailto:systemsafety-bounces at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de] *On
>> Behalf Of *Martyn Thomas
>> *Sent:* 26 November 2016 10:34
>> *To:* systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de
>> *Subject:* Re: [SystemSafety] SKODA Crash in the UK - Cruise Control
>> Stuck On
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> And here's the Guardian link, with the expert evidence saying that the
>> last 5 seconds showed no problems.
>> 
>> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/nov/24/skoda-driver-decapitated-in-stuck-cruise-control-mystery
>> 
>> The Bookout v Toyota Barr expert evidence [available online] provides
>> an interesting background.
>> 
>> Martyn
>> 
>> 
>> On 25/11/2016 23:53, Gareth Lock wrote:
>> 
>>    This link below to a news article regarding a crash involving a
>>    Skoda that sped along a motorway at 119mph after it's cruise
>>    control "got stuck", resulting in the car hitting a parked lorry,
>>    killing the driver instantly was sent to me today. I am sure there
>>    is more to it given that the report is from the Daily Mail, but
>>    this is likely to have implications for other manufacturers and
>>    the autonomous cars out there. What is interesting is that the
>>    Start/Stop button failed to have an effect.
>> 
>>    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3968218/Terrified-driver-32-called-999-control-Skoda-sped-motorway-119mph-cruise-control-stuck-crashed-lorry.html
>> 
>> 
>>    Regards
>> 
>>    Gareth Lock
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 17:06:44 +0000
> From: Pekka Pihlajasaari <pekka at data.co.za>
> To: "martyn at thomas-associates.co.uk" <martyn at thomas-associates.co.uk>,
>    "systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de"
>    <systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de>
> Subject: Re: [SystemSafety] SKODA Crash in the UK - Cruise Control
>    Stuck On
> Message-ID:
>    <AM5PR0601MB235556528E6A2555DF1B99AC898B0 at AM5PR0601MB2355.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
>    
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> If depressing the clutch or selecting neutral caused the engine to self-destruct, Skoda would probably be happy to replace it to prevent an accident caused by system failure. It would also permit assured recovery of the contents of any recording equipment in the, now very stationary, but almost intact, vehicle.
> 
> It is surprising how infrequently one finds reports that drivers take their vehicles out of gear (or engage the clutch) to allow them to slow down. The resulting engine overspeed would probably result in seizure due to lack of lubrication or overheating. Neither is usually catastrophic to the vehicle, although the engine may have pieces thrown out of the crankcase when the bits stop turning and break.
> 
> There does not seem to be provision in either the CFR or UN testing procedures to establish the satisfactory stopping of a vehicle against the force of the engine. This may be because multiple simultaneous failures have not been anticipated. Given the tight integration of vehicle electronic controls, this may become necessary to ensure shared ECU failure cannot prevent the stopping of a vehicle.
> 
> The regulations appear to require 0.3g braking force, but an inspection shows that at least high-performance vehicles substantially exceed this value by a factor of 3 meaning strict compliance is not sufficient to ensure safety.
> 
> Regards
> Pekka Pihlajasaari
> --
> pekka at data.co.za           Data Abstraction (Pty) Ltd         +27 11 484 9664
> --
> https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2013-title49-vol6/pdf/CFR-2013-title49-vol6-sec571-135.pdf
> https://www.unece.org/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs1-20.html
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fastest_production_cars_by_acceleration
> 
> 
> From: systemsafety [mailto:systemsafety-bounces at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de] On Behalf Of Martyn Thomas
> Sent: 27 November 2016 16:43
> To: systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de
> Subject: Re: [SystemSafety] SKODA Crash in the UK - Cruise Control Stuck On
> 
> It should be possible to locate the coroners' court address, if anyone wants to inquire whether a transcript of the expert evidence is available.
> 
> Shifting to neutral or depressing the clutch would sound scary if the engine was really at maximun acceleration. Would the engine survive? If the engine failed, would the failure be catastrophic?
> 
> Martyn
> 
> On 26/11/2016 19:11, Mike Ellims wrote:
> I did a bit more digging on this one but I can?t find a transcript of the coroners hearing so some of the details are unclear.
> 
> An article in the Telegraph to the effect that it should have been possible to shift from 6th to neutral even without pressing the clutch. The implication of is that the vehicle had a manual transmission so pushing the clutch in will disconnect the engine from the drive wheels as would putting the vehicle in neutral.
> 
> In addition this is a German car (basically it?s a VW Golf in drag) so the E-Gas concept would have been part of the ECU, so in theory if the brake pedal had be pressed then the engine should have gone to idle. Note E-gas has been around since the problems with unintentional acceleration in the Audi 5000 in the 1980?s
> 
> This is nominally a closed standard but I found (actually Google found it...) a copy on-line at https://www.iav.com/sites/default/files/attachments/seite/ak-egas-v5-5-en-130705.pdf
> 
> Gareth Lock commented: ?What is interesting is that the Start/Stop button failed to have an effect?.
> There are a number of issues with stop/start buttons.
> 
> 1.      Some are (or at least were) asymmetric in the operation i.e. press for ? second to start and 1 or more seconds to stop...
> 
> 2.      Start/stop button has to be held ? this was noted as being an issue in the crash with the Osprey tilt rotor reset button ? the pilot never held the button in.
> 
> 3.      So it?s possible that even if the button was ?pressed? it wasn?t held
> 
> The Octavia user manual offers the following information on its KESSY system
> 
> WARNING
> ? Never switch off the ignition while driving, as the power steering and brake booster will no longer operate - risk of accident!
> ? Never leave the keys in the vehicle, if leaving children unattended in the vehicle. Otherwise the children could start the engine - risk of accident!
> 
> And:
> 
> In an emergency, it is possible to switch off the ignition even at speeds greater than 2 km/h, by using the "emergency ignition shutoff system". Press the starter button for longer than 1 second or twice within 1 second.
> 
> 
> From: systemsafety [mailto:systemsafety-bounces at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de] On Behalf Of Martyn Thomas
> Sent: 26 November 2016 10:34
> To: systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de<mailto:systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de>
> Subject: Re: [SystemSafety] SKODA Crash in the UK - Cruise Control Stuck On
> 
> And here's the Guardian link, with the expert evidence saying that the last 5 seconds showed no problems.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/nov/24/skoda-driver-decapitated-in-stuck-cruise-control-mystery
> 
> The Bookout v Toyota Barr expert evidence [available online] provides an interesting background.
> Martyn
> 
> 
> On 25/11/2016 23:53, Gareth Lock wrote:
> This link below to a news article regarding a crash involving a Skoda that sped along a motorway at 119mph after it's cruise control "got stuck", resulting in the car hitting a parked lorry, killing the driver instantly was sent to me today. I am sure there is more to it given that the report is from the Daily Mail, but this is likely to have implications for other manufacturers and the autonomous cars out there. What is interesting is that the Start/Stop button failed to have an effect.
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3968218/Terrified-driver-32-called-999-control-Skoda-sped-motorway-119mph-cruise-control-stuck-crashed-lorry.html
> 
> Regards
> 
> Gareth Lock
> 
> 
> 
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