[SystemSafety] C for OSs

Fri Oct 11 15:25:25 CEST 2019

There must be a line missing from the agile manifesto: "gettong to
market over getting it right"

Martyn

On 11/10/2019 13:41, Andrew Banks wrote:
>
> Since you’ve raised that:
>
>  
>
>                 *Customer collaboration* over contract negotiation
>
>  
>
> Good luck with that, in the real world J
>
>  
>
> Ultimately, someone has to pay…
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:*systemsafety
> [mailto:systemsafety-bounces at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de] *On
> Behalf Of *Chris Hills
> *Sent:* 03 October 2019 17:52
> *To:* 'SPRIGGS, John J'; 'Steve Tockey'; 'Olwen Morgan';
> systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de
> *Subject:* Re: [SystemSafety] C for OSs
>
>  
>
> John
>
>  
>
> You are an antediluvian  I refer you to the Agile Manifesto
> https://agilemanifesto.org/
>
> *Individuals and interactions* over processes and tools
> *Working software*over comprehensive documentation
> *Customer collaboration* over contract negotiation
> *Responding to change* over following a plan
>
> That is, while there is value in the items on
> the right, we value the items on the left more.
>
> Now you are re-educated and can see the light!
>
> What could possibly go wrong?
>
> J
>
>
> Regards
>
>    Chris
>
>  
>
> Phaedrus Systems Ltd        
>
> FREEphone 0808 1800 358    International +44 1827 259 546
> Vat GB860621831  Co Reg #04120771
> Http://www.phaedsys.com <http://www.phaedsys.com/> 
> chills at phaedsys.com <mailto:chills at phaedsys.com>
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:*SPRIGGS, John J [mailto:John.SPRIGGS at nats.co.uk]
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 3, 2019 10:23 AM
> *To:* safetyyork at phaedsys.com; 'Steve Tockey'; 'Olwen Morgan';
> systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de
> *Subject:* RE: [SystemSafety] C for OSs
>
>  
>
> My favourite comment, from several years ago, when I pointed out some
> errors in a document, I was told “This is an agile project, we do not
> have time to change anything” 
>
>  
>
> I also despair.
>
>  
>
>  
>
> John
>
>  
>
> *From:*systemsafety
> <systemsafety-bounces at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de> *On Behalf Of
> *Chris Hills
> *Sent:* 03 October 2019 09:55
> *To:* 'Steve Tockey' <steve.tockey at construx.com>; 'Olwen Morgan'
> <olwen at phaedsys.com>; systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de
> *Subject:* Re: [SystemSafety] C for OSs
>
>  
>
> Steve,
>
> That’s the problem with dinosaurs like you wanting: Set theory,
> Requirements , Design, Code quality, Peer review, Development
> processes, Computer architecture and Engineering economics.....
>
> We use Agile so we don't need: Set theory, Requirements , Design,
> Development processes.
> We use lots of Open Source so it is all Peer Reviewed before we get it.
> We use continuous integration to get Code quality, when it compiles
> with no errors it's OK because our compiler has built in error checking.
>
> Engineering economics has nothing to do with coding/software! That is
> management ******** and techies don't need to know it......
>
> I have had all those comments said to me one way or another, more than
> once, in the last 1-2 years by people developing critical systems. So
> far mission and company critical. Some with consumer/commercial
> security implications but none so far on serious safety critical
> systems. So people/companies might lose money but not their lives
>
> That includes being told I am "a dinosaur" because: "Everyone now uses
> dev-ops with scrum for critical systems development these days.... "
>
> I despair.
>
> Seriously there does seem to be a huge disconnect between a lot of
> people "doing software" especially IoT and the [safety/security]
> critical systems people. I daily come across developers who have never
> heard of most of the things discussed in this group. How do we make
> the re-connect?
>
> Regards
> Chris
>
> Phaedrus Systems Ltd
> FREEphone 0808 1800 358 International +44 1827 259 546
> Vat GB860621831 Co Reg #04120771
> Http://www.phaedsys.com chills at phaedsys.com <mailto:chills at phaedsys.com>
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Steve Tockey [mailto:steve.tockey at construx.com]
> > Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 5:09 PM
> > To: safetyyork at phaedsys.com <mailto:safetyyork at phaedsys.com>; 'Olwen
> Morgan';
> > systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de
> <mailto:systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de>
> > Subject: Re: [SystemSafety] C for OSs
> >
> >
> > Chris Hills wrote:
> >
> > “What has made it far worse is "coding" being pushed as a skill, at
> least
> > in the UK.”
> >
> >
> > Same here in the US, and from my travels I can say it's the same all the
> > way around the world. For example, this article from just last week:
> >
> > https://mashable.com/shopping/sept-18-computer-science-master-class/
> >
> >
> > Quote from the article:
> >
> > “Learn the ropes of computer science with this master class bundle —
> just
> > $39 for full access to tons of courses that'll make you a pro in no
> time.”
> >
> > “Not only are jobs aplenty in the computer science field, but they also
> > come with a pretty paycheck – over $91K a year, on average.”
> >
> > “. . . this Computer Science Master Class Bundle will give you a
> complete
> > computer science education without the massive loans.”
> >
> >
> > Course content is said to include:
> >
> > * C#, JavaScript, Java, Scala, Google Go, Python 3, PHP MySQL
> > * The Arduino IoT cloud platform
> > * Software testing technologies: Sikuli, Selenium, Junit
> > * Building apps with Alexa
> > * Technical fundamentals and interview tips
> >
> >
> >
> > The Technical Fundamentals course had a hint of promise, but looking at
> > the course outline shows otherwise:
> >
> > * Introduction
> > * Pointer and Arrays
> > * Strings are just pointers at heart
> > * Linked lists can be fun!
> > * Bit Manipulation
> > * General programming problems - practice makes perfect
> > * Big-O Notation, Sorting And Searching Algorithms
> > * Recursion and the recursive sense
> > * Stacks And Queues
> > * Binary Trees
> > * Binary Search Trees
> > * Binary Tree Problems
> >
> >
> > Discrete math? No
> >
> > Set theory? No
> > Requirements? No
> > Design? No
> > Code quality? No
> > Peer review? No
> > Development processes? No
> > Computer architecture? No
> > Engineering economics? No
> >
> > The list of critical but missing content goes on and on.
> >
> >
> >
> > Chris Hills finished with, “It’s depressing.”
> >
> > Yes. Without a doubt. . .
> >
> >
> > — steve
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Chris Hills <safetyyork at phaedsys.com
> <mailto:safetyyork at phaedsys.com>>
> > Organization: Phaedrus Systems
> > Reply-To: "safetyyork at phaedsys.com <mailto:safetyyork at phaedsys.com>"
> <safetyyork at phaedsys.com <mailto:safetyyork at phaedsys.com>>
> > Date: Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 4:12 AM
> > To: Steve Tockey <Steve.Tockey at construx.com
> <mailto:Steve.Tockey at construx.com>>, 'Olwen Morgan'
> > <olwen at phaedsys.com <mailto:olwen at phaedsys.com>>,
> "systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de
> <mailto:systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de>"
> > <systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de
> <mailto:systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de>>
> > Subject: RE: [SystemSafety] C for OSs
> >
> >
> > The big problem is people start writing code long before the
> > specification, let alone the design is finished.
> > Hence the rise in Agile methods as they give the illusion of
> progress. Ie
> > people are writing code so much faster than with waterfall....
> > Waterfall or V model require a discipline that is also lacking in
> software
> > development these days.
> >
> > What has made it far worse is "coding" being pushed as a skill, at least
> > in the UK.
> > We have gone from Software Engineering to Programming to Coding.
> > What is pushed in "coding" is that you start developing an app by
> coding,
> > not by doing a detailed (any?) design.
> > Trial and error is pushed as a solution.
> >
> > So doing an "app" that is "something like that" will require fuzzy logic
> > and imaginary numbers (and I don't mean i notation). To do any form of
> > mathematical or formal methods on most project is a non-starter. Even
> > without the reality that maths isn't part of many software degrees
> so you
> > probably won't have the skills in any team to do it..
> >
> > What is worse is much of the IoT and Infotainment is written to low
> > standards but is being bolted on to critical systems. As we get an
> > increasingly connected world containing more and more software the
> quality
> > of the software is plummeting.
> >
> > It’s depressing.
> >
> >
> > Regards
> > Chris
> >
> > Phaedrus Systems Ltd
> > FREEphone 0808 1800 358 International +44 1827 259 546
> > Vat GB860621831 Co Reg #04120771
> > Http://www.phaedsys.com chills at phaedsys.com <mailto:chills at phaedsys.com>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: systemsafety [mailto:systemsafety-bounces at lists.techfak.uni-
> > > bielefeld.de <http://bielefeld.de>] On Behalf Of Steve Tockey
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 8:29 PM
> > > To: Olwen Morgan; systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de
> <mailto:systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de>
> > > Subject: Re: [SystemSafety] C for OSs
> > >
> > >
> > > Olwen wrote: ³I remember reading a report of a talk given by Tony
> Hoare
> > >in
> > > which he counselled solving computing problems in mathematics and only
> > > then translating the mathematics into program code. I thought that was
> > > such blindingly self-evident good practice that I wondered why he
> saw fit
> > > to say it explicitly.²
> > >
> > > I saw a similar quote but haven¹t been able to track down the source:
> > >
> > > ³Š change the nature of programming from a private, puzzle solving
> > > activity to a public, mathematics based activity of translating
> > > specifications into programs Š that can be expected to both run and do
> > >the
> > > right thing with little or no debugging²
> > >
> > >
> > > Sounds like it could be from Tony Hoare.
> > >
> > > Anyway, I am constantly amazed by how many people resist such an
> > >obviously
> > > good idea.
> > >
> > >
> > > ‹ steve
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Olwen Morgan <olwen at phaedsys.com <mailto:olwen at phaedsys.com>>
> > > Date: Tuesday, September 17, 2019 at 12:47 PM
> > > To: Steve Tockey <Steve.Tockey at construx.com
> <mailto:Steve.Tockey at construx.com>>,
> > > "systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de
> <mailto:systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de>"
> > > <systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de
> <mailto:systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de>>
> > > Subject: Re: [SystemSafety] C for OSs
> > >
> > >
> > > On 16/09/2019 23:15, Steve Tockey wrote:
> > > >
> > > > All true engineers need to have a solid foundation in:
> > > >
> > > > *) relevant Scientific & Mathematical Theory
> > > > *) useful and relevant Practice
> > > > *) Engineering Economy
> > > >
> > > > Take, for example, a Chemical Engineer. The scientific and
> > > > mathematical theory is Chemistry, Physics, and to some extent
> Quantum
> > > > Mechanics. The relevant practice are things like waste heat removal
> > > > strategies, pressure vessels, catalysts, etc. The theory and
> practice
> > > > combine to help the true engineer propose a set of theoretically
> > > > viable, potential solutions to a real-world problem. Engineering
> > > > economy comes in to guide the true engineer in identifying the most
> > > > cost-effective one of those theoretically viable, potential
> solutions.
> > > > As a consultant friend of mine once said (slightly paraphrased),
> ³The
> > > > Theory and the Practice sets Œem up, Economics knocks Œem down².
> > >
> > > Of course, I go along with this. But I learned to teach myself long
> > > before there was anything formally titled a body of knowledge. For
> > > example, I left school knowing how to do critical path analysis,
> so the
> > > technical aspects of project management were, for me, a matter of
> > > applying something that I already understood. It was the same with
> > > software testing. I taught myself graph theory in my mid-twenties and
> > > had no problem understanding graph-based test metrics when I later
> > > encountered them.
> > >
> > > Indeed, in the late seventies, when I was around 25, I remember
> reading
> > > a report of a talk given by Tony Hoare in which he counselled solving
> > > computing problems in mathematics and only then translating the
> > > mathematics into program code. I thought that was such blindingly
> > > self-evident good practice that I wondered why he saw fit to say it
> > > explicitly. And it has often irritated me to find that one needed
> to do
> > > an approved course in something to be seen as competent in things
> that I
> > > regarded as obvious.
> > >
> > > On the other hand, having had the benefit of a privileged
> public-school
> > > education (which was truly exceptional in mathematics), I found myself
> > > pretty intellectually self-reliant as soon as I started working in the
> > > computing industry. So, I'll admit it, I have to confess to blank
> > > incomprehension of people who have never felt themselves to be in that
> > > position.
> > >
> > >
> > > Olwen
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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