[SystemSafety] systemsafety Digest, Vol 124, Issue 2
Simon Whiteley
simon at whiteley-safety.co.uk
Thu Dec 8 18:16:52 CET 2022
Hello everyone! Seasons greetings!
Re: closing the list.
I personally think it is an incredibly valuable resource / location for safety / cyber interested people to gather and discuss. I think that the purpose it serves is timeless and that it should persist in some form (even if not hosted* by the Uni Bielefeld).
*perhaps the Safety Critical Systems Club might be a candidate to host?
The open public discussion format is rather challenging for certain sensitive subjects / emotive topics, especially where ideas might be perceived to go against accepted wisdom / practice… but… I’m sure there is a silent majority that watch, listen, learn and appreciate the conversations that happen. I am certainly one.
-what other alternative formats / technologies might fill the gap?
Supported with the ability to contribute to certain hot topics anonymously.
Re: social gathering (online)
Also, during December I’m running a social gathering (online) for people interested in STAMP, if you’d like to join, please drop me an email.
Take care, and best wishes,
Simon
> On 8 Dec 2022, at 16:51, systemsafety-request at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de wrote:
>
> Send systemsafety mailing list submissions to
> systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> https://lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de/mailman/listinfo/systemsafety
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> systemsafety-request at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> systemsafety-owner at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of systemsafety digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: State of Things (Derek M Jones)
> 2. Re: State of Things (Michael Holloway)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2022 14:59:35 +0000
> From: Derek M Jones <derek at knosof.co.uk>
> To: systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de
> Subject: Re: [SystemSafety] State of Things
> Message-ID: <d4b56be2-0bd0-aeac-cc35-91a45eac88fc at knosof.co.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> Peter,
>
>> None of these subjects has attracted much recent debate on the System Safety List. There may be many reasons for this,
>> but one, I think, is that people just don't seriously debate on mailing lists any more.
>
> If not on this list, then where?
>
> I am don't know of any other software reliability blogs,
> substacks, sites that are worth subscribing to (yes, I
> know that this list is not software specific, but this
> is where my interests lay).
> Suggestions welcome.
>
>> I regret this development. I am firmly convinced that active open discussion is the best way to progress system safety,
>> and the main practical way of enabling active open discussion is through email mailing lists. It seems this view is now
>> "so 1990's". So be it. Maybe we should all move to TikTok.
>
> This list had been somewhat quiet this year. It will be missed.
>
> Thanks to you for all your work in keeping the list running smoothly.
>
> --
> Derek M. Jones Evidence-based software engineering
> blog:https://shape-of-code.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2022 11:51:11 -0500
> From: Michael Holloway <cmh at alumni.virginia.edu>
> To: The System Safety List <systemsafety at techfak.uni-bielefeld.de>
> Subject: Re: [SystemSafety] State of Things
> Message-ID:
> <CAB_B+Ua2qrCi7OsP3NTPcq_KPox_1LvJOtsx3uT9yJGbfUt8=g at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Peter & everyone else,
>
> I concur in the judgement to shut down the list, but I write separately
> because my opinion on the state of things differs a bit from Peter's.
> Specifically, I think quite a few years have passed since this list
> consistently saw anything resembling legitimate debates. As GK Chesterton
> famously wrote, "People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." For
> at least 15 years there have been far more quarrels on this list than good
> arguments. The occasional vigorous debates have often been overshadowed by
> the more frequent instances of talking past one another, spewing marketing
> pitches, making thinly veiled (if veiled at all) abusive ad hominem
> attacks, and generally disagreeing disagreeably*. I believe the list is
> rarely used because of *that* specific state of things, not because of a
> more general lack of desire for true debate. Nevertheless, I agree that
> shutting the list down is the best course of action.
>
> Kind regards,
> cMh
>
> * To my shame, I've done a bit of that stuff myself occasionally. Well,
> never marketing pitches. I have never stooped that low. :-)
>
> C. Michael Holloway
> Safety-Critical Avionics Systems Branch
> NASA Langley Research Center since 1983
> https://go.nasa.gov/2QxruhD <https://shemesh.larc.nasa.gov/people/cmh/>
>
>
>
>
>
> ?-----Original Message-----
> From: systemsafety <systemsafety-bounces at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de> on
> behalf of Peter Bernard Ladkin <ladkin at causalis.com>
> Organization: RVS Bielefeld and Causalis
> Date: Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 5:18 PM
> To: The System Safety List <systemsafety at techfak.uni-bielefeld.de>
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] [SystemSafety] State of Things
>
> Folks,
>
> The Safety-Critical Mailing list started at Uni York on 19th May, 1995
>
> https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fabnormaldistribution.org%2Findex.php%2F2010%2F04%2F07%2Fengineering-discussions-of-discussions-the-york-list-after-15-years%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cc.michael.holloway%40nasa.gov%7Cae19b5c3a3be4e58586a08dad8a106d5%7C7005d45845be48ae8140d43da96dd17b%7C0%7C0%7C638060483378470459%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=bKPFuu8lAQuNMkJ0CpygNb9gc9ACVoAVXtWNdpi64CM%3D&reserved=0
>
>
> In my memory, there was extensive discussion of approaches to system
> safety, involving in particular
> the IEC standard 61508 on functional safety of equipment involving
> digital components. Rich, and
> rewarding.
>
> In summer of 2012, Uni York in moved to IT services provided by Google,
> and suddenly many
> participants of the York mailing list were unable further to
> participate, due to their company
> protocols. My group at the Uni Bielefeld reacted: Jan Sanders set up a
> mailing list using Mailman in
> my faculty IT-admin and we invited anyone from the York list to join.
> Many did.
>
> Discussion about system safety continued.
>
> Recently, there have been many important themes in digital-sytem safety
> that have come to the fore.
> The revision of IEC 61508, a huge topic of discussion in the earlier
> years of the York list. The use
> of machine-learning SW in autonomous road vehicles and other
> safety-critical applications.
> Cybersecurity considerations about safety-critical systems and their
> resolution (if there is one).
>
> None of these subjects has attracted much recent debate on the System
> Safety List. There may be many
> reasons for this, but one, I think, is that people just don't seriously
> debate on mailing lists any
> more.
>
> The list is maintained through the good auspices of Michael G?tting,
> head of the Bielefeld
> University Faculty of Technology IT services, Sascha Frey, and
> Christian Lange. All of these good
> and devoted people have much to work on (TechFak digital traffic is
> half of all traffic at UniBI,
> which supports over 20K students and myriad research groups).
>
> I don't wish to burden my colleagues any longer with maintaining a list
> that is barely used. I
> propose to close the list on 2022-12-31.
>
> I regret this development. I am firmly convinced that active open
> discussion is the best way to
> progress system safety, and the main practical way of enabling active
> open discussion is through
> email mailing lists. It seems this view is now "so 1990's". So be it.
> Maybe we should all move to
> TikTok.
>
> I thank all contributors and listeners. It's been good, for a long
> while. 27+ years is not a bad run.
>
> Best wishes to all,
>
> PBL
>
> Prof. i.R. Dr. Peter Bernard Ladkin, Bielefeld, Germany
> Tel+msg +49 (0)521 880 7319
> https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rvs-bi.de%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cc.michael.holloway%40nasa.gov%7Cae19b5c3a3be4e58586a08dad8a106d5%7C7005d45845be48ae8140d43da96dd17b%7C0%7C0%7C638060483378470459%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=4gpGMO1MAd5Zi%2FPcU2NIEwQZF6kK%2F7XKanbP%2F54aciw%3D&reserved=0
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ReplyReply allForward
>
>
> *--cMh*
>
> 1*15*41
>
>
>
>> On Wed, Dec 7, 2022 at 5:18 PM Peter Bernard Ladkin <ladkin at causalis.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Folks,
>>
>> The Safety-Critical Mailing list started at Uni York on 19th May, 1995
>>
>> https://abnormaldistribution.org/index.php/2010/04/07/engineering-discussions-of-discussions-the-york-list-after-15-years/
>>
>>
>> In my memory, there was extensive discussion of approaches to system
>> safety, involving in particular
>> the IEC standard 61508 on functional safety of equipment involving digital
>> components. Rich, and
>> rewarding.
>>
>> In summer of 2012, Uni York in moved to IT services provided by Google,
>> and suddenly many
>> participants of the York mailing list were unable further to participate,
>> due to their company
>> protocols. My group at the Uni Bielefeld reacted: Jan Sanders set up a
>> mailing list using Mailman in
>> my faculty IT-admin and we invited anyone from the York list to join. Many
>> did.
>>
>> Discussion about system safety continued.
>>
>> Recently, there have been many important themes in digital-sytem safety
>> that have come to the fore.
>> The revision of IEC 61508, a huge topic of discussion in the earlier years
>> of the York list. The use
>> of machine-learning SW in autonomous road vehicles and other
>> safety-critical applications.
>> Cybersecurity considerations about safety-critical systems and their
>> resolution (if there is one).
>>
>> None of these subjects has attracted much recent debate on the System
>> Safety List. There may be many
>> reasons for this, but one, I think, is that people just don't seriously
>> debate on mailing lists any
>> more.
>>
>> The list is maintained through the good auspices of Michael G?tting, head
>> of the Bielefeld
>> University Faculty of Technology IT services, Sascha Frey, and Christian
>> Lange. All of these good
>> and devoted people have much to work on (TechFak digital traffic is half
>> of all traffic at UniBI,
>> which supports over 20K students and myriad research groups).
>>
>> I don't wish to burden my colleagues any longer with maintaining a list
>> that is barely used. I
>> propose to close the list on 2022-12-31.
>>
>> I regret this development. I am firmly convinced that active open
>> discussion is the best way to
>> progress system safety, and the main practical way of enabling active open
>> discussion is through
>> email mailing lists. It seems this view is now "so 1990's". So be it.
>> Maybe we should all move to
>> TikTok.
>>
>> I thank all contributors and listeners. It's been good, for a long while.
>> 27+ years is not a bad run.
>>
>> Best wishes to all,
>>
>> PBL
>>
>> Prof. i.R. Dr. Peter Bernard Ladkin, Bielefeld, Germany
>> Tel+msg +49 (0)521 880 7319 www.rvs-bi.de
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> The System Safety Mailing List
>> systemsafety at TechFak.Uni-Bielefeld.DE
>> Manage your subscription:
>> https://lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de/mailman/listinfo/systemsafety
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <https://lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de/pipermail/systemsafety/attachments/20221208/e770f762/attachment.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> systemsafety mailing list
> systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de
> https://lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de/mailman/listinfo/systemsafety
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of systemsafety Digest, Vol 124, Issue 2
> ********************************************
More information about the systemsafety
mailing list