[SystemSafety] State of Things
M Mencke
menckem at gmail.com
Fri Dec 9 13:13:27 CET 2022
Hi all,
I would be in favour of keeping the list open, here, or hosted elsewhere,
particularly if there is no similar list anywhere else that we can join.
It seems to me that one of the reasons the list has been barely used is
because there was some confusion regarding whether or not it was actually
active, and there were some technical issues with the list due to emails
getting bounced and similar. So it may not have been that the members did
not want to write.
In 2011/12 I was one of the newer members on this list. During what were
for me those "early" years, I learned quite a bit from it. A considerable
amount of knowledge and perspectives were exchanged then, if I remember
correctly. I would encourage continuing the list somewhere so that others
can continue to learn from the knowledge of the earlier members in the
group.
10 years or so ago, I attended a conference in Bielefeld. I believe I was
one of the younger attendees. There were a bunch of extremely talented,
highly intelligent and articulate individuals there. Some of them are on
this list. Surely there are many talented people on this list who are
capable of construing a valid argument. I would worry that if this list is
shut down, a forum for discussion and learning is removed.
Yes, there were some unpleasant arguments and some marketing tactics
(though not that many of those, if I'm not mistaken), but surely we could
also construct some good arguments and learn from others.
I am not even working in Safety anymore, but I just wanted to send this
email to say I do consider that this list has some value as a resource for
those in the Safety field, at least it did for me.
Regards,
Myriam Mencke.
On Thursday, 8 December 2022, Les Chambers <Les at chambers.com.au> wrote:
> Hi All
>
>
>
> I wrote this for a friend in pain who expressed his wish to end his life.
> Its metaphors are appropriate to
> ending this list.
>
>
>
> Don’t
>
> Reach out Engineers
>
> From your lone time
>
> Toward a new day
>
> In the morning stillness
>
> Get your blade in the water
>
> Catch and drive
>
> Point Debate at the future
>
> The moon shines bright
>
> Optimism is abroad
>
> Let it board
>
> In the company of friends
>
> There is more
>
>
>
> Surely this is an opportunity for a safety critical systems club or a
> university to take over.
>
> Let us keep debate alive.
>
> Please consider.
>
>
>
> Les
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Peter & everyone else,
>
> >
>
> > I concur in the judgement to shut down the list, but I write separately
>
> > because my opinion on the state of things differs a bit from Peter's.
>
> > Specifically, I think quite a few years have passed since this list
>
> > consistently saw anything resembling legitimate debates. As GK Chesterton
>
> > famously wrote, "People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." For
>
> > at least 15 years there have been far more quarrels on this list than
> good
>
> > arguments. The occasional vigorous debates have often been overshadowed
> by
>
> > the more frequent instances of talking past one another, spewing
> marketing
>
> > pitches, making thinly veiled (if veiled at all) abusive ad hominem
>
> > attacks, and generally disagreeing disagreeably*. I believe the list is
>
> > rarely used because of *that* specific state of things, not because of a
>
> > more general lack of desire for true debate. Nevertheless, I agree that
>
> > shutting the list down is the best course of action.
>
> >
>
> > Kind regards,
>
> > cMh
>
> >
>
> > * To my shame, I've done a bit of that stuff myself occasionally. Well,
>
> > never marketing pitches. I have never stooped that low. :-)
>
> >
>
> > C. Michael Holloway
>
> > Safety-Critical Avionics Systems Branch
>
> > NASA Langley Research Center since 1983
>
> > https://go.nasa.gov/2QxruhD <https://shemesh.larc.nasa.gov/people/cmh/>
>
> >
>
> > -----Original Message-----
>
> > From: systemsafety <systemsafety-bounces at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de>
> on
>
> > behalf of Peter Bernard Ladkin <ladkin at causalis.com>
>
> > Organization: RVS Bielefeld and Causalis
>
> > Date: Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 5:18 PM
>
> > To: The System Safety List <systemsafety at techfak.uni-bielefeld.de>
>
> > Subject: [EXTERNAL] [SystemSafety] State of Things
>
> >
>
> > Folks,
>
> >
>
> > The Safety-Critical Mailing list started at Uni York on 19th May,
> 1995
>
> >
>
> > https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?
> url=https%3A%2F%2Fabnormaldistribution.org%2Findex.php%2F2010%2F04%2F07%
> 2Fengineering-
> discussions-of-discussions-the-york-list-after-15-
> years%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cc.michael.holloway%40nasa.gov%
> 7Cae19b5c3a3be4e58586a08da
> d8a106d5%7C7005d45845be48ae8140d43da96dd17b%7C0%7C0%
> 7C638060483378470459%7CUn
> known%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik
> 1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%
> 3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=bKPFuu8lAQuNMkJ0CpygNb9gc9ACVo
> AVXtWNdpi64CM%3D&
> amp;reserved=0
>
> >
>
> > In my memory, there was extensive discussion of approaches to system
>
> > safety, involving in particular
>
> > the IEC standard 61508 on functional safety of equipment involving
>
> > digital components. Rich, and
>
> > rewarding.
>
> >
>
> > In summer of 2012, Uni York in moved to IT services provided by
> Google,
>
> > and suddenly many
>
> > participants of the York mailing list were unable further to
>
> > participate, due to their company
>
> > protocols. My group at the Uni Bielefeld reacted: Jan Sanders set up
> a
>
> > mailing list using Mailman in
>
> > my faculty IT-admin and we invited anyone from the York list to join.
>
> > Many did.
>
> >
>
> > Discussion about system safety continued.
>
> >
>
> > Recently, there have been many important themes in digital-sytem
> safety
>
> > that have come to the fore.
>
> > The revision of IEC 61508, a huge topic of discussion in the earlier
>
> > years of the York list. The use
>
> > of machine-learning SW in autonomous road vehicles and other
>
> > safety-critical applications.
>
> > Cybersecurity considerations about safety-critical systems and their
>
> > resolution (if there is one).
>
> >
>
> > None of these subjects has attracted much recent debate on the System
>
> > Safety List. There may be many
>
> > reasons for this, but one, I think, is that people just don't
> seriously
>
> > debate on mailing lists any
>
> > more.
>
> >
>
> > The list is maintained through the good auspices of Michael Götting,
>
> > head of the Bielefeld
>
> > University Faculty of Technology IT services, Sascha Frey, and
>
> > Christian Lange. All of these good
>
> > and devoted people have much to work on (TechFak digital traffic is
>
> > half of all traffic at UniBI,
>
> > which supports over 20K students and myriad research groups).
>
> >
>
> > I don't wish to burden my colleagues any longer with maintaining a
> list
>
> > that is barely used. I
>
> > propose to close the list on 2022-12-31.
>
> >
>
> > I regret this development. I am firmly convinced that active open
>
> > discussion is the best way to
>
> > progress system safety, and the main practical way of enabling active
>
> > open discussion is through
>
> > email mailing lists. It seems this view is now "so 1990's". So be it.
>
> > Maybe we should all move to
>
> > TikTok.
>
> >
>
> > I thank all contributors and listeners. It's been good, for a long
>
> > while. 27+ years is not a bad run.
>
> >
>
> > Best wishes to all,
>
> >
>
> > PBL
>
> >
>
> > Prof. i.R. Dr. Peter Bernard Ladkin, Bielefeld, Germany
>
> > Tel+msg +49 (0)521 880 7319
>
> > https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rvs-
> bi.de%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cc.michael.holloway%40nasa.gov%
> 7Cae19b5c3a3be4e58586a08da
> d8a106d5%7C7005d45845be48ae8140d43da96dd17b%7C0%7C0%
> 7C638060483378470459%7CUn
> known%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik
> 1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%
> 3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=4gpGMO1MAd5Zi%2FPcU2NIEwQZF6kK%2F7XKanbP%
> 2F54ac
> iw%3D&reserved=0
>
> >
>
> > ReplyReply allForward
>
> >
>
> > *--cMh*
>
> >
>
> > 1*15*41
>
> >
>
> > On Wed, Dec 7, 2022 at 5:18 PM Peter Bernard Ladkin <ladkin at causalis.com
> >
>
> > wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > Folks,
>
> > >
>
> > > The Safety-Critical Mailing list started at Uni York on 19th May, 1995
>
> > >
>
> > > https://abnormaldistribution.org/index.php/2010/04/07/
> engineering-discussions-of-discussions-
> the-york-list-after-15-years/
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > In my memory, there was extensive discussion of approaches to system
>
> > > safety, involving in particular
>
> > > the IEC standard 61508 on functional safety of equipment involving
> digital
>
> > > components. Rich, and
>
> > > rewarding.
>
> > >
>
> > > In summer of 2012, Uni York in moved to IT services provided by Google,
>
> > > and suddenly many
>
> > > participants of the York mailing list were unable further to
> participate,
>
> > > due to their company
>
> > > protocols. My group at the Uni Bielefeld reacted: Jan Sanders set up a
>
> > > mailing list using Mailman in
>
> > > my faculty IT-admin and we invited anyone from the York list to join.
> Many
>
> > > did.
>
> > >
>
> > > Discussion about system safety continued.
>
> > >
>
> > > Recently, there have been many important themes in digital-sytem safety
>
> > > that have come to the fore.
>
> > > The revision of IEC 61508, a huge topic of discussion in the earlier
> years
>
> > > of the York list. The use
>
> > > of machine-learning SW in autonomous road vehicles and other
>
> > > safety-critical applications.
>
> > > Cybersecurity considerations about safety-critical systems and their
>
> > > resolution (if there is one).
>
> > >
>
> > > None of these subjects has attracted much recent debate on the System
>
> > > Safety List. There may be many
>
> > > reasons for this, but one, I think, is that people just don't seriously
>
> > > debate on mailing lists any
>
> > > more.
>
> > >
>
> > > The list is maintained through the good auspices of Michael Götting,
> head
>
> > > of the Bielefeld
>
> > > University Faculty of Technology IT services, Sascha Frey, and
> Christian
>
> > > Lange. All of these good
>
> > > and devoted people have much to work on (TechFak digital traffic is
> half
>
> > > of all traffic at UniBI,
>
> > > which supports over 20K students and myriad research groups).
>
> > >
>
> > > I don't wish to burden my colleagues any longer with maintaining a list
>
> > > that is barely used. I
>
> > > propose to close the list on 2022-12-31.
>
> > >
>
> > > I regret this development. I am firmly convinced that active open
>
> > > discussion is the best way to
>
> > > progress system safety, and the main practical way of enabling active
> open
>
> > > discussion is through
>
> > > email mailing lists. It seems this view is now "so 1990's". So be it.
>
> > > Maybe we should all move to
>
> > > TikTok.
>
> > >
>
> > > I thank all contributors and listeners. It's been good, for a long
> while.
>
> > > 27+ years is not a bad run.
>
> > >
>
> > > Best wishes to all,
>
> > >
>
> > > PBL
>
> > >
>
> > > Prof. i.R. Dr. Peter Bernard Ladkin, Bielefeld, Germany
>
> > > Tel+msg +49 (0)521 880 7319 www.rvs-bi.de
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > _______________________________________________
>
> > > The System Safety Mailing List
>
> > > systemsafety at TechFak.Uni-Bielefeld.DE
>
> > > Manage your subscription:
>
> > > https://lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de/mailman/listinfo/systemsafety
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> Les Chambers
>
>
>
> les at chambers.com.au
>
>
>
> +61 (0)412 648 992
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> The System Safety Mailing List
> systemsafety at TechFak.Uni-Bielefeld.DE
> Manage your subscription: https://lists.techfak.uni-
> bielefeld.de/mailman/listinfo/systemsafety
>
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